Listening to PUAs is Harming Your Sex Life

I decided to write this article, as recently I called out a typical PUA selling standard PUA snakeoil. It was in response to this article:

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/12/07/relying-much-sexual-market-value/

Now before I kick into things, let me preface this article by pointing out some standard characteristics that PUAs typically exhibit – particularly the ones who talk a HUGE game in order to mislead (more often than not) younger men, desperately seeking a cure for their lackluster love lives (and eager to part with their $$):

  1. They talk a big game
  2. They have plenty of posts and detailed articles about how they’re living the sex life of their (and your) dreams
  3. They never post any actual proof backing up point #2
  4. They use the excuse “I don’t want legal ramifications/implications, that’s why I don’t post proof” or something similar
  5. They always seem to have “sex with” beautiful women (8/10 +)
  6. They always seem to be “having sex with” these beautiful women in droves
  7. For some reason, the women the are “having sex with” seem to never get enough of them and keep coming back
  8. Anyone that challenges them on their legitimacy is a “PUA-hater” and is obviously angry at the world and [insert PUA excuse here]
  9. Their answers to you challenging them are often evasive and troll-like
  10. They regularly over inflate the attractiveness and quantity of the girls they “have sex with”
  11. If they do post “proof”, it’s of photos which are publicly available or creep pics which are stock porn photos e.g. no trademark/signature identifier that it’s them – for my creep pics, the trademark is ripped pantyhose

The google definition of Snakeoil:

Snake oil is a fraudulent liniment without snake extract. Currently, it has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is a fraud, quack, or charlatan.

The key words here are: questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit.

Now that we know what Snakeoil is, let’s break down exactly why you should not listen to PUAs, using this Blackdragon PUA as a good example…

  • He believes that PUA techniques and “Game” is what actually gets you laid, not your SMV

Let’s look at this point more objectively.

After completing some recon on this Blackdragon PUA, some key facts can be summarized here:

  • He’s in his mid-40s
  • He’s a white male
  • He’s always struggled with his weight, and whist I haven’t seen a photo of his aesthetics, I suspect (based on his description of himself) that he’s approx. 5ft10, and hovering around 18 – 24% body fat
  • He specializes in online dating
  • He claims that after his divorce (as a fat, clueless beta male), he was slaying girls 10 – 15 years younger than him on the regular, even though his style/SMV was below average at best
  • He claims that response rates in online dating have decreased over the years, but he still quickly has sex with beautiful young women on the regular
  • He advocates for spending as little money on women as possible, drives an average car, lives in an average house, and by no means looks affluent

Below, I’ll now identify the red flags in this situation, and why listening to PUAs like him is a waste of time.

Red flag #1 – somebody already beat me to it:

As you can see based on the above, a 37 year old woman who’s clearly over the hills and hit the wall 10 years ago, he describes as a 9/10 – regular over inflation of the quality of the chicks he’s “having sex with”.

Red flag #2 – average/sub average male 5/10 at best banging 7+ on the regular, fresh out of a divorce

Red flag #3 – smashing attractive women via online dating, which is 99.5% aesthetics based, without good aesthetics

Red flag #4 – being evasive when challenged

  • In the comments section, my challenging this PUA was met with comments on how I’m clearly angry and a PUA-hater, leaving various objections unaddressed
  • He evades my preemptive counter argument point that GLL and Will Freeman (reputable players) posting plenty of proof, yet not suffering from legal implications
  • Evading my suggestion to him posting his photo-set and profile for online dating, if he’s worried about posting creep pics/vids, so we can verify his legitimacy by using those exact photos and his PUA techniques ourselves
  • Calling me immature
  • Playing the victim card and accusing me of singling him out, even though there are plenty of PUAs out there
  • Calling me a woman who likes to argue
  • Etc.

Whilst we don’t have any photos of this Blackdragon PUA, I believe if you want to know whether he actually gets laid, it’s quite simple to figure out:

  1. Make a profile with stock photos of a white male matching his description – it shouldn’t be too difficult – just google image search: “average looking white male”/”average white guy”/”typical middle aged white guy”
  2. Make sure you put 42 – 45 as the age range
  3. Use every PUA trick/technique/skill under the sun/known to man
  4. See how you do

What you should be doing instead of working on your game/PUA techniques:

If you’re 5ft10+ in height:

  • Maxing out your style
  • Maxing out your looks
  • Getting jacked and ripped
  • Getting an edgy haircut
  • Hitting on lots of chicks

If you’re short:

  • Doing all of the above and get REALLY rich, then use Seeking Arrangement, but be a salt daddy rather than a sugar daddy;
  • And using Fetlife.com too

For the purposes of avoiding doubt, anyone who doesn’t believe that SMV is the only thing which matters when it comes to scoring hot chicks, I leave you with the screencaps below:

NB – this is not me, it’s of a player I know who’s at least 9 in SMV. Because my SMV is about 7 – 7.5, I only tag chicks SMV 6 – 8, with the occasional 8.5 – this is just an example reinforcing my point that game doesn’t exist. Remember, if you look ugly, you can still do this with money – just look at Dan Bilzerian, Leo DiCaprio, etc…

And here comes the PUA salt train, choo choo:

18 thoughts on “Listening to PUAs is Harming Your Sex Life”

  1. Hey, so I saw your comments on Blackdragon’s article when it came out and figured a post was coming.

    I’m not surprised you got some backlash on that article, as you came off as a bit combative.

    Personally, I believe Blackdragon has the best advice in the game. Painting him with the “PUA” brush is unfair, in my opinion. He’s not a pick-up artist, he’s a dating and optimization expert. He agrees with GLL in that dating is a numbers game and guys need good profiles and lots of openers/swipes to be successful. His game advice basically boils down to “be alpha, let the girl do most of the talking, talk about sex during the date”, and do a two date model where the first date is an hour and the second date you invite her directly to your place.

    Someone I know from my city, also 40+, with proven results, who gets personal coaching over the phone from him. He uses Blackdragon methods 100% and vouches for the legitimacy of his advice.

    His online dating advice is a bit dated. It was good pre-2013, but the world of Tinder has made it so that guys like him don’t have much of a chance anymore. He also admits this: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2013/12/15/ten-ways-to-get-laid-on-tinder/

    Now, as far as his personal stats, I also believe he exaggerates the attractiveness of the girls he sleeps with. This is what he looks like: https://www.google.com/search?q=blackdragon+caleb+jones. He’s actually not bad looking, and he takes good photos. But he also admits that his 1 to 10 scale may be different than most guys: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/03/02/1-10-attractiveness-scale-utter-bullshit-ill-prove/

    My take: I grew up in the same city as Blackdragon lives in currently. I personally believe he is targeting slightly alternative, homely girls with daddy issues, and inflating their /10 ratings a bit. Despite this, his advice is the best in the game, along with Good Looking Loser.

    1. “I grew up in the same city as Blackdragon lives in currently. I personally believe he is targeting slightly alternative, homely girls with daddy issues, and inflating their /10 ratings a bit.”

      This comment is on point. I suspect he probably bangs girls who are:

      – has daddy issues
      – hit the wall/over the hills (like his main girl)
      – max 5/10 on the attractiveness scale, which he inflates to 8+
      – goes for easy targets – every wonder why he doesn’t day game? He can’t, because he’s mid-40s and looks ultra creepy. I’ve seen what mid-40’s dudes look like when they daygame e.g. Krauser in Prague, ultra creepy, only fucks really weird looking chicks 5/10 max

      Based on my understanding of SMV and how the world works, BD is a bit like this guy:

      https://www.youtube.com/user/hellodavidbond/videos

      Notice how he never has any lay vids of him with white girls/in a white country? He’s essentially doing the same thing BD is doing:

      – finding a loophole in the market e.g. Thai loves white guys
      – exploiting the fuck out of it e.g. all you need to do to bang a lot of Asian girls is be white, not be over 40, not be ugly, be tall – game over
      – inflating his game/success % e.g. the trailer vids of him dating Thai girls white some hot white girl approaches (which probably lead nowhere) thrown in

      Anyhow, this summarizes my exact point – listening to a guy who fucks 5/10 with mental issues is counter-intuitive to you actually banging decent chicks. A mid-40’s man with a dad bod can only teach you how to get girls his SMV can attract. He cannot teach you how to get girls higher than his SMV. Now if he used $$, and recommended you doing seeking arrangement, then I’d say his stories are most likely credible.

      If however, he tells you he spends little to no money on the girls, drives an average car, lives in an average home, and has rotations of 3 – 7 hot girls half his age, all of whom are 8+? If that’s not the definition of snake oil, I don’t know what is.

      1. Oh god. FUCK David Bond. I hate that guy with a passion. Complete disrespect for Asian culture. Total chode. I would not be caught dead hanging out with him, his demeanor is creepy and juvenile.

        I would also never hang with Krauser, he seems like a complete sociopath, although his daygame advice is the best in the business. He also pulls the David Bond routine in that he does fuck hot girls, but ONLY in the former Soviet Union, where hot girls are a dime a dozen and attracted to him for his status/high foreigner value.

        Anyway, Blackdragon actually does recommend Seeking Arrangement: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/09/10/sugar-daddy-dating-sites/

        I don’t think he ever claims to have a rotation of 3-7 hot girls half his age, all of whom are 8+. I believe he’d say something like “a rotation of several girls”, some young, some old, all of whom are attractive (to him).

        1. “I don’t think he ever claims to have a rotation of 3-7 hot girls half his age, all of whom are 8+. I believe he’d say something like “a rotation of several girls”, some young, some old, all of whom are attractive (to him).”

          Correct – the dictionary meaning of several is “more than two but not many”. Being an oldschool gamer and going back to the D&D days, several is typically 3 – 7.

          I did some recon somewhere, and he said he doesn’t go for lower than 8+/10 attractiveness to him.

          Mind elaborating on why his day game advice is good? To me, it seems like every other phony PUA – never says anything about increasing your SMV.

          1. Also (sorry would have put this in the last comment) he defines SMV as Confidence/Dominance, Income, Appearance, and Social Standing. And he has an entire article on it where he does say to try and bring up at least 3 of them. Not trying to defend him but clarify.

        2. Actually I just want to say that he has said in past articles that he has had as many as 7 women on rotation… just to clarify.

  2. I do think game exists, but not in the way PUAs think.

    6 months ago I barely had the balls to approach a girl, now I can pretty confidently approach a lot of girls.

    Going from stuttering and barely saying 2 words to starting a convo whenever I want and saying “let’s go for a drink sometimes” absolutely changed things. The quantity of girls I approached went up. The girls I went out with were hotter. I could escalate quicker.

    My SMV did not change significantly, but game absolutely optimized my results. The average level of a girls looks went by half-point / a point and the closing rate went up.

    The issue with game is that it has its limits. I am at the point where I can’t improve my game by much. It’s close to maxed. At this point it’s clearly only muscles, clothes and money.

    The point being, game is something that you use when you are at least ok, to optimize number of girls approached, closing rate, slight conversational ability, escalation speed, mental fortitude.

    It won’t help if you don’t pass a minimal level of looks. And it won’t help you with getting girls way out of your SMV league.

    With game and slight looks improvement I went from banging 5 girls to 5.5 and now that I maxed out my game 6.

    I don’t believe I will be able to use game to get girls hotter than 6. At this point it’s all about SMV.

    I do believe in the efficiency of game is it pertains to social freedom / lack of anxiety and killer instinct. Any other type of “game” is bullshit.

    Using “game” to get girls that are 9 when you are 5 doesn’t happen. Getting more girls and girls that are 5.5 or 6 instead of 5 does however, and that is actually quite something. It is not to be discarded.

    I believe “game” as in learing to talk to girls I like and whatnot changed my life and absolutely propeled my sex life. But these are newbie gains.

    When you go from being a virgin to banging ok chicks relatively often, that’s a world of difference, and game can get you there.

    But going beyond that is where things get interesting and game alone won’t help you anymore. It’s all hard work to improve SMV from that point on.

    1. Think we’re getting into semantics here. For me, not stuttering is not game, it’s SMV. Also, talking in a calm and moderated manner is not game, it’s SMV.

      Being alpha and being good looking go hand in hand. The gynocentric world we live in has fucked that all up because of feminism and other bullshit like false rape culture, etc. etc.

      A tall, jacked, handsome man would most likely be the tribe chief’s son pre-feminist bullshit, thus would naturally inherit all the other characteristics of a chief’s son. Sadly, because over 50% of families are headed by single mothers, most boys grow up without a male rolemodel, and the ones who have dads are controlled by their wives. Anyhow, I digress…

      What I’m trying to say is, everything you mentioned above is all SMV – you wouldn’t expect to buy a Lambo without a certified engine would you?

      1. Disagree.

        Talking confidently is not SMV, it’s Game.

        Acting alpha is not SMV, it’s Game.

        I define sexual market value as looks, money and status. Anything outside of sexual market value that helps you get laid is Game: demeanor, logistics, reading IOIs, non-neediness, body language, etc.

        Game does exist and I am with C, I’m living proof. I entered the game as someone with maximized sexual market value (good style, great physique, successful) and natural alphaness, but no Game (no understanding of logistics, sexual escalation, IOIs, female psychology, etc.) Learning these took me from 0-2 random hookups a year to 20-25 girls a year over the past two years.

        1. You’re going to have to clarify here. You say Alpha is game not SMV, but then you came into the game with natural alphaness, which is part of maximized SMV.

          My argument here is that escalation shouldn’t need to be learnt. Again, if we take away this false rape culture and feminism considering anything even remotely macho as rape, would we not know how to escalate?

          I don’t know about you, but isn’t it the logical thing to move closest to the heart of the action? e.g. I purposely planned my work place, living place, gym, and day game place all to be within 7 minutes walk from each other – this being good logistics didn’t even occur to me until you mentioned it – for me, it was just “it makes sense because it saves time and hassle”.

          Not taking any credit away from you going from 0-2 to 20+, this is great to hear! The reason why I believe game doesn’t exist is because I have a friend circle of guys who know nothing about game, but still regularly score poon.

          Some of them go out at night, get drunk, then get laid.

          Some of them use Tinder with far from optimized photos.

          Some just go to parties and always pull.

          There is one thing however that they all share in common:

          – Look good
          – Dress well
          – Be ripped
          – Are tall
          – Hit on chicks

          Also, the minute I stopped listening to idiot PUAs and just focused on what GLL and Will Freeman says, my results skyrocketed. I haven’t read IOIs or bodylanguage in years.

          1. It’s interesting Bobby.

            We are coming from different experiences, thus we emphasize different things.

            I have natural genetic potential. I am really tall, my dad was a boxer. No issues on that part. Not too ugly.

            I had no sex until 19.

            I had like 6 opportunities up to that point. Some girls that were even really my type. Basically begging for my dick, HARD. But I didn’t have balls and didn’t know what to do. So I lost all those opportunities.

            I was lost totally, with no advice. I was completely lost, it’s impossible to describe.

            GLL was a god-send and a mircale. Once I learned GLL it was like making opportunities from nothing.

            My SMV was still crap due to bad haircut / style / skinniness when I started. But even with that shit SMV I went from virgin to banging 2 girls (albeit average).

            These last 6 months I got more opportunities than ever. And they were all due to me approaching. Sex 2 times, lots of close calls. Also girls treat me so much better now.

            My SMV did not improve much in the recent period, but my approaching did. So did my “game”. I am confident, funny, laid back. I absolutely get better answers now. No girls being weird to me or whatever like they did in the past.

            I am not saying that “game” is a magic bullet, where a guy who is ugly and short gets laid with photomodels all the time.

            But for me, game changed everything. Claiming that confidence is just “SMV” is kinda bs, or logistics, or escalation skill or all this other stuff. Maybe it should be, maybe it was in the jungle days, it’s not today. I know that cause I grew up a completely clueless beta fag.

            Game changed that, GLL did. Sure, I worked a bit on looks and shit. But game was like 90% to be honest. It was all in my head all this time.

            There are guys who posted on GLL who were good looking but virgins, there was even a guy who did 10,000 approaches and had 0 lays, he looked ok.

            Now we can redefine social freedom, killer instinct and all other things like body language, personality, etc. as SMV, but I think that’s bullshit.

            I do believe in game. Just don’t believe in PUA game where it is a magic bullet that will work regardless of looks and status.

            But I absolutely believe that game changed my life. This is undeniable. In MY life, it was game, that helped me take advantage of existing opportunities and create new ones.

            Without game I had girls who wanted me and I couldn’t fuck them. With game I fucked girls seeming out of nowhere.

            Not denying looks and status, but you are going in the other extreme. Game helps, A LOT.

            Just the right type, the one GLL talks about (killer instinct, social freedom). Even basic escalation tips helped me a lot. Chris’ article about polite ways of asking out “let’s go for drinks at my place” saved my ass, as simple as the advice may sound to others.

            I have also come to the conclusion there is such a thing as “inner game”, i.e confidence, ability to withstand rejection, happiness. Also red pill knowledge and other shit like body language and even personality help.

            They aren’t silver bullets, but they have a small role IMO.

            The basics don’t need to be reinvented : SMV + killer instinct

            I think because you saw naturals, just like I have on occasion, or there are super rich or super-famous or really good looking guys, doesn’t mean there aren’t guys like me, who look OK but didn’t get laid before learning game and whose 100% of lays come from conscious application of game principles (GLL in my case).

            Overall, I think your article made a point. Yes, listening to guys who don’t post photo proof is stupid.

            But this whole “game doesn’t exist” is not something I personally agree on, but I see where you are coming from.

            It is a useless debate. I think everyone here knows what you mean, and yes SMV matters.

            But personally I don’t completely throw out “game”. I have experienced it myself, it chaned my life and have my opinions on it. Yes it exists, no it’s not magic. But for me, and I am sure for some other guys out there, it is the missing component in turning their sex life.

          2. >> You say Alpha is game not SMV, but then you came into the game with natural alphaness, which is part of maximized SMV.

            I was naturally Alpha in that I was outcome independent and had an extreme lack of social inhibition and confidence. Just one example: when I lost my virginity, I had no idea what I was doing, but I still whispered in the girl’s ear if she wanted to bring her friend in so we could have a threesome.

            However, this Alphaness did not directly translate into skills. I didn’t let my Alphaness display on dates. I talked to much, I sought rapport too much, I qualified myself too much, rather than letting the girl qualify herself to me. I was able to fix this by recording my dates and having other guys in the community listen to them and critique them.

            >> isn’t it the logical thing to move closest to the heart of the action?

            Not possible in San Francisco. We have the highest rent/square foot in the entire world. $3000-$4000USD for a one bedroom in a location like you describe. I live a bit outside the city, but only 9 minutes away by train, and I pay $800 USD.

            There are also other considerations for location, like living with friends, living in a less-crowded area of town, etc. My focus in life isn’t on getting girls. Girls are secondary.

            In any case, by logistics I meant more how to handle logistics, i.e. inviting girls directly to my place on the first date, scheduling first dates closer to my place, how to bounce a girl home, etc.

            >> The reason why I believe game doesn’t exist is because I have a friend circle of guys who know nothing about game, but still regularly score poon.

            Those guys absolutely exist, sure. The Game community is incredibly small. Maybe 0.01% of guys worldwide have even a cursory knowledge of the “PUA” community. Yet tons of guys still get laid.

            Game is natural and can be acquired from sources other than sites like we frequent. And guys who are Alpha and good-looking often develop good game because they have so much exposure to women at an early age. It’s like learning a language as a child vs. learning a language as an adult.

            There’s also a strong possibility that your slayer friends would be even *more* successful if they read Game blogs.

  3. I see what you mean. These are some interesting points that you mention – perhaps it’s just semantics e.g. what you define as “game” I define as SMV. Appreciate your thoughts.

  4. What advice would you give to someone who has a pornography addiction and that is killing any drive he has to go out and approach women in the real world

    1. Stop porn all together. Having said this, I’m sure this is not the first time someone’s told you … Have you tried to quit in the past?

  5. “Game helps, A LOT.

    Just the right type, the one GLL talks about (killer instinct, social freedom). Even basic escalation tips helped me a lot. Chris’ article about polite ways of asking out “let’s go for drinks at my place” saved my ass, as simple as the advice may sound to others.”

    ^This. I’ve been frustrated as hell for a hot minute because I’ve read hella blogs and anytime they talk about game it’s weird or esoteric without concrete definition. That’s why I like Will Freeman + GLL’s definitions: “The means to obtain and retain women in your league” and “killer instinct” respectively. I don’t like the people who say it’s all looks and ignore the part about having to talk to women. However, I see what Bobby is trying to preach here, similar to alot of guys who don’t really believe in game such as: Aaron Sleazy, GLL, Will Freeman, Assanova, etc.

    Game to me is just how you finesse a situation. Nothing more, nothing less. I don’t disagree that there are “best practices” that will help with women, but ultimately outside of your appearance and demeanor, game is not the saving grace that everyone in this community thinks it is. Sorry this was more of a rant than anything else.

    Also GLL helped me get two lays within a month this semester so I can’t complain. In my defense, I am an above- average black guy whose jacked and dresses well so that does help but I like to give credit where credit is due.

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